Seeking advise on miniature pneumatic actuators and solenoid valve for a percussion player mechanism

Posted by Roberto on March 11, 2007, 7:10 pm

Hello,

I want to experiment (just for fun) with a PC controlled percussion
player mechanism.
Initially I want to play with a small solenoid valve connected to a
small pneumatic piston.
Piston will drive the hitting arm. I think max actuation/hitting rate
would be around 20Hz. (Is this rate reasonable?)
(I do not have any hands on pneumatic experience. That's why I've
considered starting with pneumatic, so I can learn more)

How to control the hitting force in pneumatic system ?
Can you recommend (low-cost) small/miniature solenoid valves and
pneumatic pistons etc for this experiment?
Any other suggestions?

Roberto

Posted by on March 11, 2007, 9:20 pm

> Initially I want to play with a small solenoid valve connected to a
> small pneumatic piston.

Putting the pneumatics in the circuit introduces delays that might be
hard to compensate, since they depend on manifold pressure. Why do
you feel they are necessary? Why not hit the surface (or the far end
of a lever with a striker on the other end) directly with the
solenoid?

Posted by Roberto on March 11, 2007, 9:57 pm

On Mar 12, 12:20 pm, zwsdot...@gmail.com wrote:

> > Initially I want to play with a small solenoid valve connected to a
> > small pneumatic piston.

> Putting the pneumatics in the circuit introduces delays that might be
> hard to compensate, since they depend on manifold pressure. Why do
> you feel they are necessary? Why not hit the surface (or the far end
> of a lever with a striker on the other end) directly with the
> solenoid?

Hello zwsdot,

Yes, I think you are right. Just a solenoid (an electro magnet with
long enough stroke length) would do the trick.
Probably a PWM ignal may also control the applied force. What do you
think?
How to select solenoid? (Probably the selection parameters size
diameter/length, stroke length, operating voltage/current,...)
How to find out how much force required? (I think answer is the do
some experiment?)
Is there any application that you are aware of for the force control
with solenoid?

Roberto

Posted by D Herring on March 11, 2007, 11:48 pm

Roberto wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I want to experiment (just for fun) with a PC controlled percussion
> player mechanism.
> Initially I want to play with a small solenoid valve connected to a
> small pneumatic piston.
> Piston will drive the hitting arm. I think max actuation/hitting rate
> would be around 20Hz. (Is this rate reasonable?)

IIRC, Hanon's piano finger exercises are often played around 108
beats/minute, 4 quarters per beat. A Czerny exercise might go twice
that. 120*8 keys/minute = 16 Hz. Yes, 20Hz is reasonable. On the
percussion side, I'd guess that's near the max speed a snare drummer
could perform.

> (I do not have any hands on pneumatic experience. That's why I've
> considered starting with pneumatic, so I can learn more)

As ZWS noted, pneumatics are not known for speed or precision...

> How to control the hitting force in pneumatic system ?
> Can you recommend (low-cost) small/miniature solenoid valves and
> pneumatic pistons etc for this experiment?

Pneumatic force is proportional to the supply pressure. Solenoid force
is proportional to the drive voltage. No good ideas for supply.

> Any other suggestions?

If you have trouble finding "the right parts", then get a single, cheap
actuator moving first... If you have some servos modified for
continuous rotation or similar motors handy, you might try attaching a
spoked striking mechanism and spinning them at different speeds...

- Daniel

Posted by Nick on March 12, 2007, 11:20 pm

D Herring wrote:

> Roberto wrote:

>> Hello,
>> I want to experiment (just for fun) with a PC controlled percussion
>> player mechanism.
>> Initially I want to play with a small solenoid valve connected to a
>> small pneumatic piston.
>> Piston will drive the hitting arm. I think max actuation/hitting rate
>> would be around 20Hz. (Is this rate reasonable?)

>
> IIRC, Hanon's piano finger exercises are often played around 108
> beats/minute, 4 quarters per beat. A Czerny exercise might go twice
> that. 120*8 keys/minute = 16 Hz. Yes, 20Hz is reasonable. On the
> percussion side, I'd guess that's near the max speed a snare drummer
> could perform.

108 beast/min < 2 Hz, twice 108 beats/min < 4Hz.
It is impossible to get 16 Hz using *ONE FINGER* (You can try :-)
BTW, 20Hz accepted as continual sound, not as sequence of beats.

>> (I do not have any hands on pneumatic experience. That's why I've
>> considered starting with pneumatic, so I can learn more)

>
> As ZWS noted, pneumatics are not known for speed or precision...
>

>> How to control the hitting force in pneumatic system ?
>> Can you recommend (low-cost) small/miniature solenoid valves and
>> pneumatic pistons etc for this experiment?

>
> Pneumatic force is proportional to the supply pressure. Solenoid force
> is proportional to the drive voltage. No good ideas for supply.
>

>> Any other suggestions?

>
> If you have trouble finding "the right parts", then get a single, cheap
> actuator moving first... If you have some servos modified for
> continuous rotation or similar motors handy, you might try attaching a
> spoked striking mechanism and spinning them at different speeds...
>
> - Daniel

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